Topics

Meteor Scatter

Tony
 

All:

I was wondering what the consensus is among the group regarding meteor scatter? It's arguably the most fascinating digital modes in ham radio (what's not fascinating about bouncing signals off of ionized meteor trails?) yet there's been little gain in popularity over the years.

Could be the lack of publicity or the old stigma associated with MS with many believing it takes big power and large antennas. Not the case anymore thanks to Joe Taylor's WSJT modes.

Any ideas?

Tony -K2MO

Joe
 

On 1/13/2018 4:49 PM, Anthony Bombardiere wrote:
Could be the lack of publicity or the old stigma associated with MS with many believing it takes big power and large antennas. Not the case anymore thanks to Joe Taylor's WSJT modes.

Any ideas?
This article might interest you.

Truckers Communicate With Dispatchers Via Meteors

<http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1989-04-30/news/8904305494_1_meteor-scatter-meteor-trails-dispatchers>

Joe

Tony
 

All:

I was wondering what the consensus is among the group regarding meteor scatter?
I guess there's no interest?

Tony -K2MO

Joe K1YOW
 

Hi Tony,

I probably missed your original post. I operate some meteor scatter mainly
on 6M. 2M is much more difficult, since the ping times are around 1/8th the
time one gets on 6M. I use WSJT-X and for 6M and 2M can use an IC-746PRO
with a RIGblaster or if on 6M only, my TS-590SG. My antenna is a small 6 ft
boom log periodic antenna, 21 elements, but it probably only uses 2-3
elements on each band.

I find that my setup on 6M meteor scatter is marginal. While I do work
stations, folks running bigger 6M beams and 200W to 1KW do much, much better
than my 100W. On 2M I have heard some pings, but no QSOs yet.

If you check out DX Maps, every morning, you will see meteor scatter QSOs in
blue lines on the map. Morning is best.

Joe, K1YOW

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Anthony Bombardiere
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 6:37 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Meteor Scatter

All:

I was wondering what the consensus is among the group regarding meteor
scatter?
I guess there's no interest?

Tony -K2MO

Andrew O'Brien
 

I used to do 6m MS but got tired of it because often a quote would take up to 20 minutes to exchange data that makes the so legitimate. Also because most of the time , the people I would work were the same small cadre of MS operators .
Andy K3UK

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2018, at 7:34 AM, Joe K1YOW <joedzekevich@...> wrote:

Hi Tony,

I probably missed your original post. I operate some meteor scatter mainly
on 6M. 2M is much more difficult, since the ping times are around 1/8th the
time one gets on 6M. I use WSJT-X and for 6M and 2M can use an IC-746PRO
with a RIGblaster or if on 6M only, my TS-590SG. My antenna is a small 6 ft
boom log periodic antenna, 21 elements, but it probably only uses 2-3
elements on each band.

I find that my setup on 6M meteor scatter is marginal. While I do work
stations, folks running bigger 6M beams and 200W to 1KW do much, much better
than my 100W. On 2M I have heard some pings, but no QSOs yet.

If you check out DX Maps, every morning, you will see meteor scatter QSOs in
blue lines on the map. Morning is best.

Joe, K1YOW

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Anthony Bombardiere
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 6:37 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Meteor Scatter

All:

I was wondering what the consensus is among the group regarding meteor
scatter?
I guess there's no interest?

Tony -K2MO






Joe K1YOW
 

I'll also add that on WSJT-X I use MSK144. Its decoding is orders of
magnitude better than some of the earlier modes. It is basically a 2.4 KHz
wide fast digital modes where the message is 72 ms long and we repeat them
for a 15 second time slot. The 6M freq is 50.260 and the 2M freq is
144.150. When not too busy, everyone uses those frequencies for QSOs. When
very busy, as in a meteor shower, folks call CQ there and listen nearby.
You also need some computer horsepower and memory. I use a Dell quad i5
with 12 GB. Then using deep decode and a F Tol of 200, that consumes 20% of
the CPUs. Frequency is also critical. The F Tol of 200 means that you will
decode someone within 200 Hz of the frequency. Most folks are usually
within 20 to 50 Hz. Joe, K1YOW

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Andrew O'Brien
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 8:27 AM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Meteor Scatter

I used to do 6m MS but got tired of it because often a quote would take up
to 20 minutes to exchange data that makes the so legitimate. Also because
most of the time , the people I would work were the same small cadre of MS
operators .
Andy K3UK

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 23, 2018, at 7:34 AM, Joe K1YOW <joedzekevich@...> wrote:

Hi Tony,

I probably missed your original post. I operate some meteor scatter
mainly
on 6M. 2M is much more difficult, since the ping times are around 1/8th
the
time one gets on 6M. I use WSJT-X and for 6M and 2M can use an IC-746PRO
with a RIGblaster or if on 6M only, my TS-590SG. My antenna is a small 6
ft
boom log periodic antenna, 21 elements, but it probably only uses 2-3
elements on each band.

I find that my setup on 6M meteor scatter is marginal. While I do work
stations, folks running bigger 6M beams and 200W to 1KW do much, much
better
than my 100W. On 2M I have heard some pings, but no QSOs yet.

If you check out DX Maps, every morning, you will see meteor scatter QSOs
in
blue lines on the map. Morning is best.

Joe, K1YOW

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Anthony Bombardiere
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 6:37 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Meteor Scatter

All:

I was wondering what the consensus is among the group regarding meteor
scatter?
I guess there's no interest?

Tony -K2MO






Tony
 

I used to do 6m MS but got tired of it because often a quote would take up to 20 minutes to exchange data that makes the so legitimate. Also because most of the time , the people I would work were the same small cadre of MS operators . Andy K3UK
Andy:

You're right about the small number of operators. That's the primary reason for my post: thought I could drum up some activity that way.

Have you tried using MSK144? This mode decodes into the noise so it can utilize those weak pings that FSK441 can't decode. Cuts down on QSO time quite a bit.

What was your setup on 6M?

Tony -K2MO

Tony
 

Joe:

2M is much more difficult, since the ping times are around 1/8th the
time one gets on 6M

Yes, I believe signal duration varies with the square of the wavelength and the received power by the wavelength cubed. I've noticed a considerable improvement on 2 meters with the new MSK144 mode. Wonder if you've seen the same?

My antenna is a small 6 ft boom log periodic antenna, probably only uses 2-3 elements on each band.
Bill, AA2UK, has a similar setup. He uses a small 2 element 6 meter Moxon with very good results. http://sal-electronics.com/se-6mb.html

He does run some power, but considering the low antenna gain, he does very well.
See: https://www.pskreporter.info/pskmap.html?AA2UK

Tony -K2MO



Hi Tony,

I probably missed your original post. I use WSJT-X and for 6M and 2M can use an IC-746PRO
with a RIGblaster or if on 6M only, my TS-590SG. My antenna is a small 6 ft
boom log periodic antenna, 21 elements, but it probably only uses 2-3
elements on each band.

I find that my setup on 6M meteor scatter is marginal. While I do work
stations, folks running bigger 6M beams and 200W to 1KW do much, much better
than my 100W. On 2M I have heard some pings, but no QSOs yet.

If you check out DX Maps, every morning, you will see meteor scatter QSOs in
blue lines on the map. Morning is best.

Joe, K1YOW

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Anthony Bombardiere
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 6:37 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Meteor Scatter

All:

I was wondering what the consensus is among the group regarding meteor
scatter?
I guess there's no interest?

Tony -K2MO






Joe K1YOW
 

Hi Tony,

Yes, folks using the Moxon and some power on 6M do very well. Now on 2M, I
have worked some stations via tropo (by accident, LOL) but not by meteor
scatter yet. I did a test with a station 1,400 miles West of me on 2M. He
ran 1 KW and a beam with more than 7 elements (forgot how many elements) and
we set up on 30 sec intervals. In 15 minutes, I heard two pings from him.
He said via Ping Jockey that he could not wait to hear what my signal (100W
and 2-3 elements) sounded like on 2M....where my reply was a LOL. He didn't
hear me (normal conditions, no meteor shower).

I have worked Bill, AA2UK. I am pretty sure we did both on 6M, meteor
scatter and tropo. I am 35 miles WNW of Boston, so on tropo conditions, I
can hear you folks down NJ way. I think a while back he was maybe waiting
for some tubes for his 2M setup. Actually, VE1SKY was running 100W on 6M
meteor scatter a week ago or so, so I messaged him on Ping Jockey something
like "now you know how I feel...LOL.

We have a bunch of stations in New England running high power MSK144 6M
meteor scatter, so we all try to Tx on the 2nd odd 15S time slot. Otherwise
it's a tad hard to copy when you hear the locals at +20 dB. LOL

Joe, K1YOW

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Anthony Bombardiere
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 4:05 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Meteor Scatter

Joe:

> 2M is much more difficult, since the ping times are around 1/8th the
time one gets on 6M

Yes, I believe signal duration varies with the square of the wavelength
and the received power by the wavelength cubed. I've noticed a
considerable improvement on 2 meters with the new MSK144 mode. Wonder if
you've seen the same?

My antenna is a small 6 ft boom log periodic antenna, probably only uses
2-3 elements on each band.

Bill, AA2UK, has a similar setup. He uses a small 2 element 6 meter
Moxon with very good results. http://sal-electronics.com/se-6mb.html

He does run some power, but considering the low antenna gain, he does
very well.
See: https://www.pskreporter.info/pskmap.html?AA2UK

Tony -K2MO



Hi Tony,

I probably missed your original post. I use WSJT-X and for 6M and 2M
can use an IC-746PRO
with a RIGblaster or if on 6M only, my TS-590SG. My antenna is a small 6
ft
boom log periodic antenna, 21 elements, but it probably only uses 2-3
elements on each band.

I find that my setup on 6M meteor scatter is marginal. While I do work
stations, folks running bigger 6M beams and 200W to 1KW do much, much
better
than my 100W. On 2M I have heard some pings, but no QSOs yet.

If you check out DX Maps, every morning, you will see meteor scatter QSOs
in
blue lines on the map. Morning is best.

Joe, K1YOW

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Anthony Bombardiere
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 6:37 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Meteor Scatter

All:

I was wondering what the consensus is among the group regarding meteor
scatter?
I guess there's no interest?

Tony -K2MO







Chiefsfan2
 

BNSF railroad also uses meteor scatter in the 44 MHz range for some sort of communications. I have done MS on 6 meters and it is a fun mode. I used 100 watts and a 4 element yagi and had great results. I would like to experiment with aprs via MS.

On Jan 13, 2018, 17:07 -0600, Joe <k1ike_mail@...>, wrote:
On 1/13/2018 4:49 PM, Anthony Bombardiere wrote:
Could be the lack of publicity or the old stigma associated with MS
with many believing it takes big power and large antennas. Not the
case anymore thanks to Joe Taylor's WSJT modes.

Any ideas?
This article might interest you.

Truckers Communicate With Dispatchers Via Meteors

<http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1989-04-30/news/8904305494_1_meteor-scatter-meteor-trails-dispatchers

Joe



Don_KB9UMT
 

Hi Tony K2MO,

Hope all is well your way (has been a while).

Personally I think you hit the nail on the head with your two deciding factors on MS activity today......lack of publicity/interest/participation and those thinking it takes large yagi/arrays or big power (and some new to the Hobby that never heard of it at all).  But I think you forgot another factor of years past and that was someone pushing interest/participation and to me that person for WSJT MS was Tip WA5UFH (and of course many others too, but Tip really pushed for participation).

http://www.qsl.net/wa5ufh/Rally/NAHSMS.htm
(Tip at it again promoting MS...of course like and site no longer good since Tip went QRT in 2011)

http://baseportal.com/cgi-bin/baseportal.pl?htx=/randy_tipton/Two_Mtr_Initials_Meteor_Scatter&localparams=1&db=Two_Mtr_Initials_Meteor_Scatter&cmd=list&range=50,50
(check the calls and date....has been a while since many participated or had interest)

http://www.halifax-arc.org/pdf/MeteorscatterVHFComms.pdf
(good document from the past, and Tony you are mentioned as well)
 
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/dont-wait-for-vhf-uhf-to-be-open-go-digital.15582/
(I tried from time to time to worked with Tip on trying to promote MS or any weak signal work on VHF/UHF)

It has been a while but back in 2001 to 2004 very active in promoting MS and VHF/UHF with some 130 Ops in the Central Region experimenting with many different digital modes on VHF/UHF and by far the most fascinating I think to most was MS.  We encouraged ANYONE to use what you have (10w, 50w, 100w, horizontal loops/moxon/squ, small yagi to large, vertical to horizontal, or plan ol verticals,etc..just use what you have with all mode vhf/uhf rig -which many have ie. ic706,ic746,IC820,FT817,FT8,FT726/736,FT856/897,FT767mod,TS2000,TR9130 etc).  Personally I had a small station using 3 ele on 6m, 10 ele on 2m, 10 ele on 440 and 50w or less....proved no problems making MS contacts on 6m/2m (440 more of a challenge)....but bottom line many of the big gun stations with larger and even stacked arrays I think found that a very narrow aim/pattern might be the advantage they thought on MS and maybe smaller yagi with different pattern might be as good on MS (as I recall Tip even changed from stacked 2m 18 ele arrays to single M2 9 ele and had good success or about the same).

Anyway wish you could drum up the activity again on MS Tony but it takes a lot of time/effort to do so....I know Tip WA5UFH finally burned out after years of doing so trying to beat the drum for activity, keep stats to show folks, setup skeds/activity hours, plan small type contests, etc., and then came WSJT to HF......I think Tip and a few others had a lot to do with the interest/activity back then (Last email I received from Tip was Nov2011 in which he said retired, sold everything to QRT from Ham Radio, and was moving on....he really spent countless hours and years promoting digital VHF/UHF and MS).

Don KB9UMT 
www.30mdg.org

Tony
 

Don:

Nice to hear from you as well. I can certainly appreciate the efforts to promote meteor scatter by Tip and others so thanks for posting that. Joe Taylor certainly changed the playing field with his outstanding protocols.

Like you, I've been active on meteor scatter for some time and I wonder if you remember the efforts by 9A4GL to bring high-speed CW into the world of digital sound card modes? Being nostalgic, I recorded a short demo illustrating how his software worked. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLxReDDomAs

We've come a long way since the days when meteor scatter was done with high-speed tape recorders : ) Thanks to Joe Taylor, folks are working 50 MHz meteor scatter with 100 watts and a small 2 element roof-top Yagi. 

Tony -K2MO




On 2/4/2018 12:26 PM, Don_KB9UMT via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tony K2MO,

Hope all is well your way (has been a while).

Personally I think you hit the nail on the head with your two deciding factors on MS activity today......lack of publicity/interest/participation and those thinking it takes large yagi/arrays or big power (and some new to the Hobby that never heard of it at all).  But I think you forgot another factor of years past and that was someone pushing interest/participation and to me that person for WSJT MS was Tip WA5UFH (and of course many others too, but Tip really pushed for participation).

http://www.qsl.net/wa5ufh/Rally/NAHSMS.htm
(Tip at it again promoting MS...of course like and site no longer good since Tip went QRT in 2011)

(check the calls and date....has been a while since many participated or had interest)

http://www.halifax-arc.org/pdf/MeteorscatterVHFComms.pdf
(good document from the past, and Tony you are mentioned as well)
 
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/dont-wait-for-vhf-uhf-to-be-open-go-digital.15582/
(I tried from time to time to worked with Tip on trying to promote MS or any weak signal work on VHF/UHF)

It has been a while but back in 2001 to 2004 very active in promoting MS and VHF/UHF with some 130 Ops in the Central Region experimenting with many different digital modes on VHF/UHF and by far the most fascinating I think to most was MS.  We encouraged ANYONE to use what you have (10w, 50w, 100w, horizontal loops/moxon/squ, small yagi to large, vertical to horizontal, or plan ol verticals,etc..just use what you have with all mode vhf/uhf rig -which many have ie. ic706,ic746,IC820,FT817,FT8,FT726/736,FT856/897,FT767mod,TS2000,TR9130 etc).  Personally I had a small station using 3 ele on 6m, 10 ele on 2m, 10 ele on 440 and 50w or less....proved no problems making MS contacts on 6m/2m (440 more of a challenge)....but bottom line many of the big gun stations with larger and even stacked arrays I think found that a very narrow aim/pattern might be the advantage they thought on MS and maybe smaller yagi with different pattern might be as good on MS (as I recall Tip even changed from stacked 2m 18 ele arrays to single M2 9 ele and had good success or about the same).

Anyway wish you could drum up the activity again on MS Tony but it takes a lot of time/effort to do so....I know Tip WA5UFH finally burned out after years of doing so trying to beat the drum for activity, keep stats to show folks, setup skeds/activity hours, plan small type contests, etc., and then came WSJT to HF......I think Tip and a few others had a lot to do with the interest/activity back then (Last email I received from Tip was Nov2011 in which he said retired, sold everything to QRT from Ham Radio, and was moving on....he really spent countless hours and years promoting digital VHF/UHF and MS).

Don KB9UMT 
www.30mdg.org


Andrew OBrien
 

Anyone doing MSK144 these days ?
Andy K3UK

Tony
 

Anyone doing MSK144 these days? Andy K3UK
I've been using MFSK144 on meteor scatter since it was introduced in 2016. It's said to decode better than FSK441 and that does seem to be the case.

This video shows several meteor pings decoding down into the -5 to -7 db range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DZZj1HUJIY

I ran a quick test on 6 meters to illustrate the range we often see on meteor scatter -- see attached image.

Tony -K2MO