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Sound Cards and Simulators

Tony
 

All:

Tony, K2MO here. Need advice on sound cards and simulators.

As you may have heard, Mike, DL6IAK, developed a low-latency HF path simulator which is said to be suitable for testing ARQ modes such as Pactor, VARA, ARDOP and others.

The test setup requires 2 PC's with cable connections between sound cards. The modems audio must pass through the path simulator before it's sent to the other PC which would require separate I/O's.

I would imagine this could be accomplished by using 2 sound cards on each PC which is the way FreeDV's digital voice modem works. The problem is that the extra sound card may add latency to the path simulators existing delay: that delay would be multiplied by 2 with 2 PCs.

The question is: can the modems audio be sent to the path simulator using some other method of programing magic? I thought of using virtual audio cable, but my guess is that the latency would be much greater than using 2 sound cards.

Any suggestions?

Tony -K2MO


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

dualraoul
 

Matthew,

Take a look at the other thread K3UK posted about "Winlink channel QRM" which is what I was referring to. ARDOP and VARA are nice tech accomplishments it's just too bad some of the users are brain dead when it comes to
utilization and the modes are still opaque to outsiders. Oh, not all the stations use CW id so that aspect remains hidden too.


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Dave AA6YQ
 

AA6YQ comments below
-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 12:46 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Data throughput is the reason Winmor isn't used more by certain segments of the Winlink user population. When ARDOP and VARA prove themselves capable of matching or exceeding that, I expect things to change in that regard.

The busy frequency detection technology used in Winmor can be incorporated in existing Winlink servers; I confirmed this with Winlink development personnel *years* ago. "ARDOP and VARA don't yet provide enough throughput" is yet another lame excuse for not ensuring that one never initiates transmission (locally or remotely) that will QRM an existing QSO.
73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

 

Ron,

Actually, Andy is talking about listening to an active Winlink connection, which I've done a number of times myself. The clue should be him.mentioning the cw id of the other stations, since most other modes don't use that method.

Dave,

Data throughput is the reason Winmor isn't used more by certain segments of the Winlink user population. When ARDOP and VARA prove themselves capable of matching or exceeding that, I expect things to change in that regard.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU


On March 10, 2018 1:25:41 AM EST, dualraoul <rkolarik@...> wrote:
Matthew, still making excuses for the QRM I see. Take a look at what K3UK posted about Winlink channel QRM and tell me busy detect works or the ops are actually looking at their screens or LISTENING first. WInlink vs Winlink, there has to be a lesson in there somewhere.........gotta run, low battery :)

Ron K0IDT
 

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

dualraoul
 

Matthew, still making excuses for the QRM I see. Take a look at what K3UK posted about Winlink channel QRM and tell me busy detect works or the ops are actually looking at their screens or LISTENING first. WInlink vs Winlink, there has to be a lesson in there somewhere.........gotta run, low battery :)

Ron K0IDT
 


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Dave AA6YQ
 

+++ AA6YQ comments below

-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 12:32 AM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Thank you for the polite answers; it helps me understand why you believe ACDS stations are not using busy channel detectors.

+++ I know that WINMOR stations *do* include busy frequency detectors, and to good effect.

+++ What disgusts me is that fact that all remotely activated stations haven't followed WINMOR's lead. Effective busy frequency detection technology is available; the failure is on the part of operators who continue to fabricate excuses for not deploying it.

+++ I'm waiting for "the dog ate my busy frequency detector".

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

 

Dave,

Thank you for the polite answers; it helps me understand why you believe ACDS stations are not using busy channel detectors.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

On March 9, 2018 10:07:50 PM EST, Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@ambersoft.com> wrote:
AA6YQ comments below
-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2018 4:56 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Dave,

How long should they wait before pushing the connect button in the
software? How long should the software wait before considering the
frequency clear enough to allow a connection attempt?

Before transmitting for the first time on a frequency in any mode, I
listen to the frequency for ~15 seconds. If I hear nothing, I send QRL?
and listen for another ~15 seconds. If I still hear nothing, I
transmit. If I hear or see a QRL in response, I QSY.

For K1JT modes like FT8, I look in the waterfall for a frequency
that's been clear for the last cycle before initiating a CQ.

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Dave AA6YQ
 

AA6YQ comments below
-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2018 4:56 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Dave,

How long should they wait before pushing the connect button in the software? How long should the software wait before considering the frequency clear enough to allow a connection attempt?

Before transmitting for the first time on a frequency in any mode, I listen to the frequency for ~15 seconds. If I hear nothing, I send QRL? and listen for another ~15 seconds. If I still hear nothing, I transmit. If I hear or see a QRL in response, I QSY.
For K1JT modes like FT8, I look in the waterfall for a frequency that's been clear for the last cycle before initiating a CQ.
73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Andrew O'Brien
 

Actually , I found myself pondering the same question today . I would pounce quickly if I heard both station’s CW ID signifying they had finished . I would wait about two minutes if I was uncertain if they had finished .

Andy

On Mar 9, 2018, at 4:55 PM, Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io <daywalker_blade_2004=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Dave,

How long should they wait before pushing the connect button in the software? How long should the software wait before considering the frequency clear enough to allow a connection attempt?

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

On March 8, 2018 8:26:01 PM EST, Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@ambersoft.com> wrote:
AA6YQ comments below
-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 8:02 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

I think the interference is mostly a matter of non-Winlink users
expecting the Winlink folks to listen with an application that can
decode other modes before trying to connect using Winlink Express.
While that could happen, I don't expect people that have limited
battery power to run their stations to do that.

Wow, an all-time new Winlink excuse for not first listening on a
frequency before initiating transmission: "Listening first would drain
my battery". Who else is pursuing the "Seen All Winlink Excuses" award?

My all-time favorite is still "we've been QRMing everyone else for
so long that if we equipped Winlink stations with busy frequency
detectors, the ops we QRM'd would spend all day putting tones on our
frequencies to prevent our messages from being delivered". As if...

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.



Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

 

Dave,

How long should they wait before pushing the connect button in the software? How long should the software wait before considering the frequency clear enough to allow a connection attempt?

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

On March 8, 2018 8:26:01 PM EST, Dave AA6YQ <aa6yq@ambersoft.com> wrote:
AA6YQ comments below
-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 8:02 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

I think the interference is mostly a matter of non-Winlink users
expecting the Winlink folks to listen with an application that can
decode other modes before trying to connect using Winlink Express.
While that could happen, I don't expect people that have limited
battery power to run their stations to do that.

Wow, an all-time new Winlink excuse for not first listening on a
frequency before initiating transmission: "Listening first would drain
my battery". Who else is pursuing the "Seen All Winlink Excuses" award?

My all-time favorite is still "we've been QRMing everyone else for
so long that if we equipped Winlink stations with busy frequency
detectors, the ops we QRM'd would spend all day putting tones on our
frequencies to prevent our messages from being delivered". As if...

73,

Dave, AA6YQ


--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


Re: Testing the new Winlink modes.

KC9SGV
 




On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 3:38 PM, KC9SGV <kc9sgv@...> wrote:
Hi All,
 
I will be running the KC9SGV Winlink RMS with four modes all weekend.
VARA, ARDOP, Winmor and VHF Packet.
Same Signalink USB connected through different ports.
7.101 MHz USB Dial.
Station will be attended.
 
Please test away and compare throughput speeds sending the same 5-10Kb file to your gmail email account in quick succession.
That way, HF propagation should be fairly constant.
Post the results here, please.
 
I will try to add Pactor as well, later.
 
Have fun,
Bernie,
KC9SGV
Chicago.




Testing the new Winlink modes.

KC9SGV
 

Hi All,
 
I will be running the KC9SGV Winlink RMS with four modes all weekend.
VARA, ARDOP, Winmor and VHF Packet.
Same Signalink USB connected through different ports.
7.101 MHz USB Dial.
Station will be attended.
 
Please test away and compare throughput speeds sending the same 5-10Kb file to your gmail email account in quick succession.
That way, HF propagation should be fairly constant.
Post the results here, please.
 
I will try to add Pactor as well, later.
 
Have fun,
Bernie,
KC9SGV
Chicago.



Winlink channel QRM

Andrew OBrien
 

Nice to see the increased activity with ARDOP and VARA signals now heard more frequently on the Winlink recommended gateway frequencies. Still the usual issues with QRM though.  twice today, in the middle of a transfer, Pactor activity started up and curtailed my attempts. I am not sure what can be done with that.  Also, some frequencies have several gateways in close geographical proximity and QRG proximity .The The bandwidth needed for VARA is such that thee to four gateways interfere with each other. due to channel channel.   .  In my case, they are nice and loud on 40M but hardly anytime that at least one of these stations are not active. 

Andy K3UK


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Andrew OBrien
 

I find the VARA busy detection flags things as "busy" when there is absolutely no signal around. The busy detect in MARS-ALE  could be manually set by the user, it would be useful if VARS had a similar feature.

Andy K3UK

On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 2:24 AM, John Wiseman <john.wiseman@...> wrote:
Matthew,

The ARDOP busy is designed to detect any signals in the pass band, not just
ARDOP signals. I don’t know details of the VARA busy detect, but practical
experience suggests it does the same. Of course they may struggle to detect
some of the "below the noise" weak signal modes.

73,
John


________________________________________
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: 09 March 2018 01:02
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Andy,

I think the interference is mostly a matter of non-Winlink users expecting
the Winlink folks to listen with an application that can decode other modes
before trying to connect using Winlink Express. While that could happen, I
don't expect people that have limited battery power to run their stations to
do that.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU
On March 8, 2018 4:24:24 PM EST, Andrew OBrien <k3ukandy@...> wrote:
It seems to me that we have a really useful tool at our disposal now. 
Winlink Express has Pactor, Packet, Robust Packet, Winmor, ARDOP, and VARA
as RF related modes.  Plus you can use Telnet to move traffic.  You can use
these modes with Internet assistance our you can do peer to peer .  You can
use Iridium Go with Winlink and satellite phones. A busy detct is bult in,
so hopefully the use of this application avoids some of the well-known
Pactor BBS QRM issues.  

Andy K3UK

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.






Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

John G8BPQ
 

Matthew,

The ARDOP busy is designed to detect any signals in the pass band, not just
ARDOP signals. I don’t know details of the VARA busy detect, but practical
experience suggests it does the same. Of course they may struggle to detect
some of the "below the noise" weak signal modes.

73,
John


________________________________________
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: 09 March 2018 01:02
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Andy,

I think the interference is mostly a matter of non-Winlink users expecting
the Winlink folks to listen with an application that can decode other modes
before trying to connect using Winlink Express. While that could happen, I
don't expect people that have limited battery power to run their stations to
do that.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

On March 8, 2018 4:24:24 PM EST, Andrew OBrien <k3ukandy@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems to me that we have a really useful tool at our disposal now. 
Winlink Express has Pactor, Packet, Robust Packet, Winmor, ARDOP, and VARA
as RF related modes.  Plus you can use Telnet to move traffic.  You can use
these modes with Internet assistance our you can do peer to peer .  You can
use Iridium Go with Winlink and satellite phones. A busy detct is bult in,
so hopefully the use of this application avoids some of the well-known
Pactor BBS QRM issues.  

Andy K3UK

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Dave AA6YQ
 

AA6YQ comments below
-----Original Message-----
From: main@digitalradio.groups.io [mailto:main@digitalradio.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2018 8:02 PM
To: main@digitalradio.groups.io
Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

I think the interference is mostly a matter of non-Winlink users expecting the Winlink folks to listen with an application that can decode other modes before trying to connect using Winlink Express. While that could happen, I don't expect people that have limited battery power to run their stations to do that.

Wow, an all-time new Winlink excuse for not first listening on a frequency before initiating transmission: "Listening first would drain my battery". Who else is pursuing the "Seen All Winlink Excuses" award?
My all-time favorite is still "we've been QRMing everyone else for so long that if we equipped Winlink stations with busy frequency detectors, the ops we QRM'd would spend all day putting tones on our frequencies to prevent our messages from being delivered". As if...
73,

Dave, AA6YQ


Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

Andrew OBrien
 

That is an interesting point Mathew because today i noticed LOTS of ststaions listed as providing VARA and ARDOP on their gateways.   I am somewhat dubious about whether all on the list are doing so.  I was surprised to find 5 or 6 that did respond to my VARA connect attempts .  Tried about 10 altogether .

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:02 PM, Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io <daywalker_blade_2004@...> wrote:
Andy,

I think the interference is mostly a matter of non-Winlink users expecting the Winlink folks to listen with an application that can decode other modes before trying to connect using Winlink Express. While that could happen, I don't expect people that have limited battery power to run their stations to do that.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

On March 8, 2018 4:24:24 PM EST, Andrew OBrien <k3ukandy@...> wrote:
It seems to me that we have a really useful tool at our disposal now.  Winlink Express has Pactor, Packet, Robust Packet, Winmor, ARDOP, and VARA as RF related modes.  Plus you can use Telnet to move traffic.  You can use these modes with Internet assistance our you can do peer to peer .  You can use Iridium Go with Winlink and satellite phones. A busy detct is bult in, so hopefully the use of this application avoids some of the well-known Pactor BBS QRM issues.  

Andy K3UK

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.



Re: Vara Virus Alert

Tony
 

Andy - Howard:

It does seem to be a false alert. Thank you both.

Tony

On Mar 8, 2018, at 1:41 PM, W6IDS <w6ids@frontier.com> wrote:

Hi Tony,

Never had an alert here for VARA at any time. All's well. I stopped with McAfee long ago due to false positives but that's just MY case.

Howard W6IDS


On 3/8/2018 1:13 PM, Anthony Bombardiere wrote:
All:

Anyone else getting a virus alert when launching Vara 1.7.2? Probably nothing, but in my case, McAfee quarantines VARA.EXE.

Tony -K2MO



Re: All-Mode Gateways?

Tony
 

Thanks Andy

On Mar 8, 2018, at 5:27 PM, Andrew O'Brien <andrewobrie@gmail.com> wrote:

Try kc9sgv or k7ek , both in Midwest on 40m
On Mar 8, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Anthony Bombardiere <DXDX@optonline.net> wrote:

All:

Anyone know of a Winlink Gateway running Vara, Pactor and ARDOP on the same band?

Tony -K2MO





Re: Thanks Rick, Jose, and Winlink folks .

 

Andy,

I think the interference is mostly a matter of non-Winlink users expecting the Winlink folks to listen with an application that can decode other modes before trying to connect using Winlink Express. While that could happen, I don't expect people that have limited battery power to run their stations to do that.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU


On March 8, 2018 4:24:24 PM EST, Andrew OBrien <k3ukandy@...> wrote:
It seems to me that we have a really useful tool at our disposal now.  Winlink Express has Pactor, Packet, Robust Packet, Winmor, ARDOP, and VARA as RF related modes.  Plus you can use Telnet to move traffic.  You can use these modes with Internet assistance our you can do peer to peer .  You can use Iridium Go with Winlink and satellite phones. A busy detct is bult in, so hopefully the use of this application avoids some of the well-known Pactor BBS QRM issues.  

Andy K3UK

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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